Virtuous

It just doesn’t make since to me for Jesus to say, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” to end up in hell for 3 days. What did God do, receive His spirit and send it to hell? What would be the purpose in that? I would think that would defeat the purpose of God sending His only Son to die on a cross for our sins that we might be saved from going to hell. If you ask me, I would say He lived through pure hell being crucified. That was enough… And then to say He had to "steal" the keys? I don't think so... I want to know what others think as well.

By all means, Dove...

Mia, As I read your prayer request, I feel like God is telling me to give you what He gave me. I was in a week long court case with my cousin a few months back. One day as I was praying that the enemy be exposed for the lies, trickery, deceit, and injustice that had been plotted, I told God that I didn’t want to just be praying…I wanted scripture to stand on and this is what He gave me… Psalms 64 – KJV 1 Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy. 2 Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity: 3 Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words: 4 That they may shoot in secret at the perfect: suddenly do they shoot at him, and fear not. 5 They encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them? 6 They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search: both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart, is deep. 7 But God shall shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly shall they be wounded. 8 So they shall make their own tongue to fall upon themselves: all that see them shall flee away. 9 And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing. 10 The righteous shall be glad in the Lord, and shall trust in him; and all the upright in heart shall glory. AMP 1 HEAR MY voice, O God, in my complaint; guard and preserve my life from the terror of the enemy. 2 Hide me from the secret counsel and conspiracy of the ungodly, from the scheming of evildoers, 3 Who whet their tongues like a sword, who aim venomous words like arrows, 4 Who shoot from ambush at the blameless man; suddenly do they shoot at him, without self-reproach or fear. 5 They encourage themselves in an evil purpose, they talk of laying snares secretly; they say, Who will discover us? 6 They think out acts of injustice and say, We have accomplished a well-devised thing! For the inward thought of each one [is unsearchable] and his heart is deep. 7 But God will shoot an unexpected arrow at them; and suddenly shall they be wounded. 8 And they will be made to stumble, their own tongues turning against them; all who gaze upon them will shake their heads and flee away. 9 And all men shall [reverently] fear and be in awe; and they will declare the work of God, for they will wisely consider and acknowledge that it is His doing. 10 The [uncompromisingly] righteous shall be glad in the Lord and shall trust and take refuge in Him; and all the upright in heart shall glory and offer praise.

We command him to the feet of Jesus now and render him mute and useless. Ooooooooooooh, yes God! Thanks Connie! I felt that!

Thank you so much, Mia!

Ok...we know depression is a spirit and it's not of God. The devil is a liar! So we curse that spirit right now in the name of Jesus. I can say that it IS good that you recognize what’s going on and the possible result it can bring. DON’T ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN! We will be tried and tested…that’s a given. But I honestly think we have a say-so (even if it’s slight) in how long we stay in because of our reaction or lack thereof. For me, the waiting is an “it’s on the way sign”. It’s what I DO during the wait is what’s going to make all the difference. Just as in the natural during testing time, the teacher doesn’t speak. He/she has taught and given you all the material you need to pass the test and has given you a set time to take it. He/she waits for you to take to the test then gives you a grade on what you’ve retained and what you’re able to apply according to the answers given. The same with God. I honestly believe in my heart that when we are in these waiting seasons for answers to our prayers, God is testing us on what He’s provided for us. There is something attached to the prayers you’re waiting on to be answered. There is something you didn’t do when you felt like this before and depression set in. Don’t allow depression to set in by NOT doing it again. I think you stopped believing the first time. You stopped hoping. When there’s no hope, there’s nothing. Don’t give up. You have to press your way through. Don’t look to the left. Don’t look to the right. No matter what it looks like, feels like, taste like, smell like, and sounds like it’s hallelujah. When you don’t understand…its hallelujah. In the midst of your storm…it’s hallelujah. The highest praise is still hallelujah. Those are words to a song God gave me in October after a trial. Dig deep mj and find the weapon(s) God has equipped you with to get through this waiting season. You have it. Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen. Find YOUR substance mj. Don’t give up the fight.

Do you know what season you are in?

Cholette, I am so glad your post reminded of the word from the Lord you gave me. I found it. It was on August 10, 2009 and it speaks VOLUME even to this day…especially with these . I have to admit I didn’t quite understand all of it at the time but I do now. I understand…God I understand. You could’ve addressed the “situation” like you started to and like I wanted you to but you didn’t. You followed what God placed in your heart and I thank you. I understand…God I understand. Lord, I’ll trust you in the currents that are in the waters even when the waves get crazy and chaotic. I know you are in control of the currents and you won’t let me drown. I understand…God I understand!

From the moment I received the words/testimonies from a_ehat and Mia this morning, the enemy started with me! I'm sitting here wondering where these came from all of a sudden and then it hit me. All of this came about as soon as I received/responded to their words/testimonies! INCLUDING being reminded of the word from the Lord Cholette gave me last year...well in 2009.

This reminds me of a word from the Lord you gave me last year!!!!!!! The part about "deeper waters" stands out!!!!!!!!!! My heart is beating REALLY fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I declare that the works of the devil will not prosper! I declare unity and love over this family. I speak healing to the pains and hurts. I release understanding and forgiveness. IN the name of Jesus! I pray! Beautiful. I stand in agreement!

Father in the name of Jesus, I pray that you will guide and direct SisterinChrist to her next assignment.

The blood of Jesus.

Father, God, in the name of your precious son Jesus; I come before you now, as humble as I can, standing in agreement in prayer with latoya31 concerning her husband. I ask that you will dispatch your warring angels of protection that they may be posted and standing on guard around and about her home…protecting her and her children from all hurt, harm and danger. I speak peace, your peace… your peace that surpassing all understanding to saturate her and her children. May she and her children be robed in peace, healing, deliverance and freedom in the name of Jesus. May your perfect and sovereign will be done in their lives. I curse the assignment of the enemy from the root that has been sent to this household and command it to die in the name of Jesus. I speak to the spirit of abuse and command you to flee in the name of Jesus. You are trespassing and you have no authority to operate in this household. I plead the blood of Jesus over this household and command everything that is not like God to be cast out right now. Thank you Jesus for your protection. May latoya31 and her children be overtaken by the love you have for them. latoya31, God has placed angels in charge over you. (Psalms 91:11) These angels are at your disposal for you to dispatch wherever you need them.

Dove, I found it. It's under "Prophetic Words". Then "Divine Revelations". Then the "Law and grace vs curses and blessings" thread. I read it again. It's 4 pages long! We went deep! Your scripture references are about grace. They don't mention anything about we are not to tithe. The discussion was great! We played nice.

Cholette, Sweetie, I didn’t mean to make it sound like I felt as if you are using grace as an excuse to sin. I completely understand what you’re saying ABOUT grace as far as what it does for us as a result of Jesus dying on the cross. Dove, Do you mind directing me to that sermon? Or maybe even giving me the scripture references which state we are not to tithe?

Delightful Soul, I wasn’t going to say anything, other than what I already have, but after reading one of your most recent post, I feel I should. I KNOW exactly what you’re speaking about concerning the tithes and the leaders. First let me say that I don’t think MJ (not saying that you felt/feel she is doing this) was ill-speaking against her Pastor. I think she is just expressing what happened to her and how she felt about it which is totally understandable. However, what you’re saying is true about the scripture. It IS speaking of leaders and I had to learn that the HARD way. I wasn’t doing it on purpose but I just didn’t know. I was so hurt behind something that happened between me, my Pastor, and a couple other saints that I talked about it to anyone who would listen. Well, not anyone. But I talked to family about it… It hurt SOOOOOOO bad. I told God I was LEAVING and I meant every word I said. He said, “You ain’t (yep that’s the word He used) going nowhere. You’re going to sit there and you’re going to get through this.” [MJ, I’m not saying that’s what you should do. You have to know what God is telling you. I’m just using myself as an example.] I should’ve gone into prayer about the situation and given it over to God because I KNEW I didn’t do anything wrong. Once I did that, God told me HE was going to vindicate me. I began to rest in Him, stayed in church because I was too afraid to go anywhere else after He said I couldn’t (yep I had an attitude about it at first and still “plotting” to leave), and after awhile, the hurt and the anger was gone. But it took God to show me that I HAD to go through that. I didn’t understand it at the time, but I do now. Growth and maturity followed in so many areas. Do I still feel that my Pastor was wrong? Yes. Did I see God’s hand move in the situation? Yes. Not only with my Pastor but with me as well. One of the things He revealed to me was that I HAD my Pastor on the pedestal where He belonged. My Pastor makes decisions that I don’t agree with and sometimes things are said during service that I don’t agree with (no one is ALWAYS operating in the spirit) and I HAVE to take it to God because if I don’t, I’ll take it somewhere else and start a gossip session. It is a MUST that we pray for our leaders as well. We have to keep them lifted up in prayer. I did that with the situation I told you about earlier and it caused a couple of my family members not to even want to visit my church because of it. I could’ve cost my family their very lives by telling them what I went through during that time (because I was hurt and just didn’t understand what was going on) and it was a TEST FOR ME to make and mold me. Tell God on your Pastor and allow Him to deal with him/her. So we DO have to be careful about that. As far as the tithing goes, there have been deep discussions on this very topic on this site. You are absolutely right. Some of the things you mentioned, I also mentioned in the other thread that was started before I became a member. Everything you have said about tithing, curses, and grace is the truth. Those are hard facts to swallow. It’s tight but it’s right. There are many who will not agree because they want to do away with the Old Testament because it is under the law. The Old Testament is rough and it’s because sin was brought into the world. When God spoke creation into being, there was NO SIN – Period. What Jesus did for us, already was, in the beginning. When Jesus died, he took all of our sin to the cross, saving us from death because of our sins. Now, we don’t die BECAUSE of our sins. The grace of God when He sent Jesus saved us from that. We can die IN our sin if we don’t repent. What would the NT be without the OT? Would there even be a NT? Grace is a beautiful thing and it IS taken for granted. We can’t use it to justify, sugar coat or pamper. We have to be taught the unadulterated word of God. Yep…HOLINESS. I agree with you 100%. I feel just as strongly as you feel about this. I chose to not go into the depth that you did because I did that in the other thread and it went the same way this one is going. "Grace is there for mistakes and for mercy when we fail but when we have knowlege we are accountable to follow His word and not use grace as an excuse to sin. I really pray that the grace message be preached with balance and not used to water down the convicting power of the word." I don’t think this could’ve been said better. I do believe that tithing/giving comes from the heart and a person is led by the Lord on what and where to give. He has given us the minimum already when it comes to tithing. He specifically asks for 10% of all of our increase - that’s a given. But as for me, He has instructed me to give more than 10%. My Pastor didn’t tell me, a Prophet didn’t bring me a prophecy telling me – God told me Himself what I should tithe. I give in the offering (above my tithes) what I want/desire to give and sometimes He tells me what to give. It’s not about the money. Come on now, we’re talking about God here. He who lives where the streets are made of gold. It’s my obedience. He said it’s about the obedience and not the sacrifice. Yes tithing IS actually more than money/income. It has to be. That’s why I believe it says “of INCREASE” and not wages. Give of yourself through talents, time, love, and all the other things expressed to the Pharisees when they were ONLY carefully giving money. The harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few. I don’t think ANY of us want to offend the other and we all have our thoughts about things. We’re not going to always agree but I think the most important thing to remember is that we need to speak things in love and hope and pray it is taken in the spirit of love. ----As I was getting ready to post this, I saw where lola21st posted and I just wanted to chime in. I believe all that you have said as well because what you speak about is happening every day. We have to be careful because God warned us of false prophets/teaching. There is this one televangelist that a co-worker of mine was telling me about who was coming to a local area that she was going to see. My sister had just mentioned this person to me the night before. I had never heard of this person. I was like, hmm. But as my co-worker began to go into more detail about this person and the ministry, something just didn’t sit well with me. She said this person was sending letters asking for a certain amount of money and for her to do certain things with items sent to her. Well, she didn’t get the items. I didn’t say anything to either of them about it. I did a search on-line and the entire first page of the search was allegations brought up against the ministry. It is said that this person would have conferences and ask the people to fill out visitor/information cards. The cards are taken up before service and the spouse of this person would transmit the information to this person about the people through an earpiece this person was wearing. I didn’t say anything to my co-worker or my sister. My co-worker went to the conference and I asked her how it was. She told me it was powerful and she and the young lady who went with her were called out and given a word. I asked her to tell me everything that happened. Just as the search said, it happened. They were asked to fill out information cards and they were taken up before the service. One of the things asked is if there was sickness in the body and if they had a prayer request. Everything she and her friend put on the card, this person spoke. I sent her the information I found and let her decide for herself. I did the same with my sister. I didn’t bash the person or anything, but I did pray for this person AND the people who are following this person.

We tithe from the heart and God knows a person who is just giving 10% in money from who his giving 10% with his heart. The amount on the line on the offering envelope doesn't determine a tither. God sees the HEART of man. Whatcha say, whatcha say, What-you-say!!!! You got that right. Just ask the Shunamite(sp) woman who gave her last mite. HEY, God. Glory! Keep in mind this woman is alive and well today in some shape, form or fashion. I know because I have been her at times in giving. THAT’S WHY what Cholette said about the amount on the line on the offering envelope is soooooooo true! Uh, oh...!!!

Jesus didn’t come to abolish the law. He came to fulfill it. No, we are no longer under the law but under grace which is good because if we were under the law, we would all be dead. Not just because of not being tithers, but everything else as well. It’s the principle of tithing just as it is the principle of the law. God fulfilled the law when He died because that’s what the law stated should’ve happened. That’s what He fulfilled. He fulfilled DEATH of the law for our sins. You have to look at what the law was about things. He didn’t get rid of (abolish) the law of the thing; He DIED to fulfill the results of what was/is suppose to happen of not doing it. Where do you think we would all be if we died under the curse of the law? We’d go straight to hell. His death to fulfill the law is more for our spiritual being because we are not perfect. Yes, tithes were before the law. If it was before the law, and if we look at we are no longer under the law, tithing shouldn’t be included if it was before the law. Are we not suppose to follow the law because we are under grace? Is the law fulfilled or is it just that the law of tithing fulfilled? Tithing was after the law as well. The Pharisees tithed in the New Testament. It’s mentioned in one of the Gospels that I know of. I think it’s Luke? They were actually getting scolded because they made sure they tithed but they weren’t doing any of the other things toward/with/for the people. They were told it was good to tithe but don’t’ forget to do those other things too. I believe the curse of the law came along with the curse of the ground when Adam and Eve sinned. There is no way Adam and Eve (in their sin) could’ve stood on a holy ground so God HAD to curse the ground. There’s no way a holy people (which God knew He was going to send His Son to save) could’ve stood up without a hope of freedom of living under this curse so He had to send Jesus to fulfill the law that would put us under grace. We couldn’t have made it because we are a sinful people therefore we need grace to protect us from the law. The law is still there. People are not looking at the principles or even being taught the principles of tithing. THAT’S the problem. We all talk about putting God first in every area of our lives. ..UNLESS money is involved. I don’t tithe because I’m afraid of being cursed with a curse. I tithe to honor God with the first fruit (the best) of my income because it is He who gives me power to get wealth and because I love Him. I do it out of obedience. Cholette is right. God is NOT GOING TO MAKE you give. He doesn’t have to. For every person who won’t give; there’s one or MORE who will willingly give.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it makes you and them sleep better...oh, well; have at it. But it still remains with me that the "X" is just a way to remove Christ from Christmas. Just like everything else...

(apologies to the man of the thread!) Hi Deborah! Thanks, yes I am aware of the origin of "Holiday" and I can appreciate what you’re saying. The thing is that those that extend the greeting typically don't know that this is the case; more often than not they extend the greeting as a symbol of tolerance for the three celebrations taking place during this time (Christmas, Hanukah, and Kwanzaa - actually four if Ramadan falls during this period)...it's intended as a way of greeting without potentially offending someone who doesn't celebrate the holiday that would've been extended. Companies and schools will often use this greeting to avoid conflict (though as stated in my earlier post, schools have taken this one step further to refer to this period with even more generic names ). And then you have people who use the term because they are not religious and don't want to recognize a holy day at all...I don't want to be associated with this latter group and I do know which Holy Day I'm celebrating so when extending greetings I say Merry Christmas, even if the person I'm talking to isn't Christian. I don't do it to be self-righteous nor do I do it to be mean spirited, I do it because it's what I do - I’m a Christian, I celebrate Christmas – it’s that simple. When around my Jewish friends for example, I say Merry Christmas, they say Happy Hanukah and it's done, the holiday greetings are exchanged. (This wasn’t always in the case in my experience, especially back in the Northeast where I’m originally from.) My feeling about this is strong because whether people like it or not, the reason we have vacation time, special concerts and performances, tv specials, decorations in the mall and at home, Santa for the kids, mistletoe, candy cane, (special and exceptionally good) chocolate ( ), etc. during this period is because of Jesus’ birth. These things are all offshoots of our celebration of it so to reach a point where we shut out the reason for the season in both large and small ways is inappropriate. Even using ‘Merry Xmas’ as benign as it is, is another way of watering the whole season down which is why Cholette and I harassed Dreamster for his shorthand…(D, I know this wasn’t your intent, please don’t take offense at this statement)…not to mention, it provided an opportunity to Dreamster that couldn’t be passed up… I hope I don't come across like a vigilante, it's just that there is a growing intolerance for anything religious (unless it's Buddhist, New Age, or Wicca) and a growing intolerance for everything Christian in the SF Bay Area which is where I live. Cholette also lives in California and I imagine she experiences the same thing in her region. I've heard more than once recently that in Silicon Valley only 6-10% of the population considers themselves religious and/or attends church So that means that 90% + of the population here are not yet saved. (What a great opportunity for missions, don’t you think?) For me, it's a small but important gesture to say Merry Christmas. People know where I stand and it potentially offers an opportunity to talk about Jesus. Ok, I’m stepping down from my now and am unhijacking the thread….carry on with the Ditto, I totally agree with you. To add my . The "X" being used is NOT a cross. It's an "X". A cross is made like a "t". This is just another form of deception to justify removing Christ out of Christmas. I don’t care what symbol or letter is put there…it boils down to the same outcome – Christ has been removed. AND…Congratulations, Dreamster. Only you…only you!